rocky41_7

i hope you don't mind me asking, but i'm genuinely curious about how you perceive curufin and celebrimbor's relationship, like from aman to beleriand. honestly, every iteration of their bond, whether it's generational trauma (tough love) or the loving father-son is wonderful (and painful) because, for me, both fit them so much. sorry, i just love exploring their interactions (especially celebrimbor's relationship with his other uncles as well), they have me in a chokehold.

I said:

Don’t apologize for giving me an excuse to talk about Elves, this is the Talking About Elves blog! (｡･∀･)ﾉﾞ

This is a juicy question! I am obsessed with family dynamics, so I always love considering things like this. First off, I think via canon there are almost infinite ways to interpret this relationship prior to Curufin’s exile from Nargothrond. Some are, for me, more believable than others–for instance, I simply struggle to buy Curufin, son of Feanor, as a lovey-dovey father, but there’s nothing in the text that strictly refutes it.

I think to start I need to talk briefly about Curufin’s relationship with Feanor, because I think he tries (with varying degrees of success) to model much of what he does off of Feanor.

I think Curufin hero-worshipped Feanor growing up, and that didn’t really change much into adulthood. He even went into his father’s craft, the only one of Feanor’s sons noted to do so. He looked a lot like Feanor, he followed his father’s footsteps in career, and yet–we never hear of a single noteworthy invention or artistic piece of his. Curufin’s name is on nothing. Feanor’s inventions require an encyclopedia, and Celebrimbor’s work survives well into the Third Age (and arguably into the Fourth), but Curufin? Nada.

And I think Feanor was a very difficult father. I don’t want to get in here about whether he was a good father or not because this ask isn’t about him, but I do think he was a demanding father. He was brilliant and incredibly driven, and I think he expected a lot from his sons. Add to that that he had seven kids and only so much attention to go around, and the best way to get his attention growing up was to have an achievement. Therefore, I think all seven of them developed some sense of needing to earn dad’s attention.

All of this collectively to me ends with Curufin trying very hard to replicate Feanor, but not doing a very good job. Ergo, he was incredibly demanding on Celebrimbor, believing that the best way to handle a child was to raise them to exacting standards, tiger-mom style. But Celebrimbor is a very different person than Curufin, and would have thrived a lot more under a gentler hand. Nevertheless, I think he did try hard to live up to his father’s standards–it’s just that Curufin could actually end up being harsher than Feanor, which means Celebrimbor actually got less from his father than Curufin got from Feanor. There’s also the element of Curufin wanting to use his son to impress his dad, which didn’t help (still after daddy’s attention after all).

I do think Celebrimbor bought pretty hard into the Feanorian Kool-Aid generally though. He was raised among people who were increasingly fanatical; it makes sense to me that he shared their mindset, because it was the one that surrounded him his whole youth. I think he was all on-board with the revolt of the Noldor, but I think the kinslaying at Alqualonde really gave him second thoughts.

Curufin, I think, has and develops a much more “the ends justify the means” attitude, as well as embracing the Feanorians’ descent into darkness a lot quicker than, say, Maglor. But Celebrimbor doesn’t quite. I think Alqualonde unsettles him quite a lot, as much as he tells himself it was a mistake, an accident, something that will never happen again.

So he lives with Celegorm and Curufin and busies himself making a life in Middle-earth. By this point in his life, I think Celebrimbor has grown to regret choosing smithing and jewel-craft as a focus, because he can’t help but wonder if Curufin would be less strict if he’d gone into some field Curufin didn’t really know anything about, which wasn’t related at all to late granddad Feanor. (He also wonders if spending less time together wouldn’t be better for his and Curufin’s relationship.)

And then they go to Nargothrond.

More background: I do not think Celegorm and Curufin, the latter especially, like Finrod. I think generally the Feanorians find the Arafinweans preachy and sanctimonious, and very annoying. So having to go to him to ask for shelter and charity is incredibly grating on Curufin, and liable to make him particularly nasty to Finrod even as he’s getting help from him.

However, Celebrimbor thinks Finrod is a delight! Finrod is so much that Curufin is not: cheerful, optimistic, gentle, quick to praise and slow to anger. And he loves playing the uncle, so he’s more than happy to take Celebrimbor under his wing a bit and get him settled in Nargothrond. In turn, Celebrimbor warms right up to him and is eager to show Finrod anything he’s working on, because Finrod will find something nice to say about even his worst projects. Celebrimbor thrives in an encouraging atmosphere, and he gets from Finrod what he always wanted from Curufin. It has the effect of rousing some old childhood resentment about his dad’s seeming inability to be nicer.

Curufin does not approve of Celebrimbor getting “too close” to Finrod. He gets nastier in response.

I think Celebrimbor disapproved of his father and uncle’s behavior long before they were officially exiled. I think watching Curufin interact with Finrod revealed to Celebrimbor things about his father he had never wanted to know, like how petty and childish and cruel Curufin can be. And I think Celebrimbor was embarrassed to watch his father behave this way towards someone who had been so generous with them, even in spite of his rocky past relationship with Curufin.

So I think even before Beren showed up, Celebrimbor was reconsidering his relationship with Curufin, and while I think he kept a lot of these thoughts to himself as he was mulling it over, there was chafing in that relationship, but Curufin blamed Finrod and didn’t take it seriously.

So when Curufin supports Celegorm in turning Nargothrond against Finrod and sending him out to certain death, after everything Finrod had done for them, I think Celebrimbor was not only horrified, he grieved. He loved Finrod! And I think he was disgusted that Curufin would support Celegorm’s plan to force Luthien to marry him, and that they lied to her and imprisoned her.

The events of Nargothrond revealed just how low Curufin could go (and ofc it does get worse later, with the Second Kinslaying and the additional attempts to murder Beren and Luthien) and Celebrimbor realized that far from repenting for the First Kinslaying, Curufin seemed even less moored to any kind of moral code. So I think here he realized he simply could not go along with his father or his uncle anymore. At some point you have to ask yourself about the kind of people you want to surround yourself with, and I think Celebrimbor wanted nothing to do with them anymore. I think it hurt him, to think people he loved were they sorts of people, and I think he was crushingly disappointed in both of them, but particularly after Finrod’s grisly death (along with the Elves who had stuck by his side), I think Celebrimbor simply could not justify standing by Curufin’s side anymore, and the fact that Curufin never expressed any regret for what he had done contributed to that.

Feanorians barred from rebirth etc. but even if they were not, I do not believe a reborn Celebrimbor has a lot to say to his paternal family. He watched them only get worse from the point where he had disowned them, and I think by the time they’re all gone, they disgust and horrify him so much that he really does not want to interact with them at all. I think he would go full no-contact if they were ever around each other again, and at best might accept a profuse apology for all the things they did. Even if they were committed to being better, at that point I’m just not sure there’s any relationship there left to rebuild. I think they burned that bridge with him and there’s no building it back. Civil distance is as much as they can probably hope for.

So yeah, these are my general baseline thoughts on it!

Anonymous said:

Hey, were you the one who posted how Maglor himself thought the oath and kinslayings were such evil acts? If so, how come there are those who still believe the second and third kinslaying is justified when Maglor himself thought it to be such an evil deed? I really need like a solid reasoning cause I was talking to someone who still believes the kinslayings were justified/needed and doesn't take my "murder is wrong" thing as a reason lol

I said:

That was indeed my post! If we’re thinking of the same one. I’ve definitely made a post like that.

I mean I don’t really know what to say besides “murder is wrong” lol If we can’t agree on that um. I don’t really know where we go.

The argument in favor of the kinslayings that I’ve seen usually boils down to property rights. Because the Silmarils are the rightful (and that’s honestly debatable) property of the Feanorians, anyone who keeps the Silmarils from them deserves what they get, basically.

Which is. Kind of bonkers as a moral philosophy, even if you DO buy that the Feanorians have an uncontested right to the Silmarils. #1: We’re punishing theft or conversion with DEATH now? That’s acceptable to us? #2: The harm the Feanorians caused went far beyond the individual who possessed the Silmaril (Dior in the Second Kinslaying and Elwing in the Third). Even if Dior had taken that Silmaril right out of Maedhros’ hand and spit in his eye on the way out it wouldn’t justify the wholesale slaughter of an entire kingdom. They literally murdered children over things. Items. Stuff. Magical cool stuff yeah–but they valued it over lives. Does anyone honestly think Tolkien would have written a story agreeing with that as a moral view?

I don’t know how you look at Maedhros and Maglor–the ONLY two of SEVEN sons to survive through the Third Kinslaying–and think THEY think they did the right thing. Five of their brothers have now died in assaults on other Elves which they began. Maglor argues for breaking the oath there, he resists Maedhros’ drive to the Fourth Kinslaying (until he doesn’t), and at the end of it all, he throws his precious Silmaril into the sea. Maedhros kills himself over it. These are not the actions of people who feel GOOD about where their lives have gone and the actions they’ve taken. Tolkien is so blatantly obvious about the Feanorians being in the wrong it’s always a little wild to me that the KINSLAYINGS get defended.

On the note of the Fourth Kinslaying, let’s not forget that: That after everything, after the War of Wrath is over and everyone is ready to go home and see their families and be at peace, a whole group of Elves get murdered by Maglor and Maedhros again over the Silmarils. A group–Eonwe’s guard–of people who had survived a war with MORGOTH die because Maedhros and Maglor weren’t willing to break their oath.

An oath which Tolkien casts as wicked from the very start–something that was always likely to bring them to evil acts.

Furthermore, as Dior points out in some versions outside Silm proper, at the time the Second Kinslaying is committed, Melkor still has two of the Silmarils. Even if Dior had handed over Luthien’s Silmaril–to the people who had kidnapped and attempted to forcibly marry and presumably rape his mom; and also tried to murder her and his father later on–the oath is still not fulfilled, because Melkor has two.

The fact that the Feanorians choose to pursue Luthien’s Silmaril with violence and bloodshed rather than make a go at the two that Melkor has has always revealed their hypocrisy to me. They chose Luthien’s Silmaril because they knew it would be easier to get than the ones that Melkor has. Easier to kill other Elves if they don’t give you what you want, than to attack or infiltrate Angband. Even now, when they know it’s possible–because Beren and Luthien did it, and they had FAR fewer resources at hand than the Feanorians (and for the record, Fingon also successfully infiltrated Angband; Gwindor and others have successfully escaped from Angband)–they choose to slay other Elves instead. Say again the Second Kinslaying was “necessary”?

This is how Tolkien describes the attack on the Havens:

Does this description sound like people taking justified action? And let’s not forget, in this battle, the Feanorians’ own troops are so horrified by their actions that they turn against them.

Members of the Feanorians’ own people find their actions so terrible they cannot simply join those who stand by and refuse to attack the Havens, but they actively join the fight on the side of the Havens. Moreover, the heroic Gil-galad arrives intending to stop the Feanorians and aid the Havens. Sure, he arrives too late–but his intent is made clear: the Feanorians are the villains here, who need to be stopped.

And I don’t think it is uncontested that the Silmarils belong to the Feanorians. For one, they were created entirely and only by Feanor; none of his sons had anything to do with it. And for two, the universe itself has deemed by the end that the Feanorians no longer have a property right in them, when the Silmarils burn the hands of Maedhros and Maglor because of all the evil they’ve committed. The jewels themselves will not be touched by these people who have done so much wrong. Eonwe tries to warn them about this before they even commit the Fourth Kinslaying.

Like…I don’t know how the book could be more clear that the Kinslayings were wrong and that Maedhros and Maglor were in the wrong.

I think fans are so invested in the Feanorians they’re willing to bend over backwards to find some view where they didn’t actually commit horrific war crimes and were in fact in the right. But that’s just not the story Tolkien wrote. Also, you can like them and still admit they did horrible things. You are allowed to like characters who are in the wrong!

Hey, are you still bitter about the treatment Thingol gets in the fandom? Because I am, even if it's 2023. The fact that people have such visceral reactions and threw a huge hissy fit in response to Thingol banning Quenya as if his banning is equivalent to a mass slaughter when said mass slaughterers are claiming lands in Beleriand and mocks Thingol's kingship is funny to me. And the fact that people mock and shit on Thingol for being pissed at the kinslaying at Aqualonde because he wasn't even there, like hello? That's his brother's people tf? Who wouldn't be pissed when you find out your brother's family legit got slaughtered? He has flaws but like so do many characters in silm, yet he gets so much hate and is never written with justice because he's against the noldor/feanorians.

Am I still bitter about [X]? yes. The answer is always yes.

People’s attitudes towards Thingol in this fandom are a perfect illustration of character-centric morality: the things the Feanorians do are excusable because they’re liked, and anything Thingol does is worthy of scorn because he is not liked. That’s how you get people acting like the Quenya ban is on par with literal mass murder (and no, I don’t think his asking for a massive number of foreign troops coming into the area to show him respect as the local ruler, as a display of good faith if nothing else, was unreasonable).

Look, I get why Thingol is not a big fan favorite. He suffers from “show not tell” where although Tolkien tells us he was a wise and beloved king, most of what we’re shown in detail are things he fucked up. He also plays the King Triton role with Beren and Luthien, and no one likes a guy who stands in the way of ~true love~. Additionally, some of his most likeable moments come in Children of Hurin, which is, of course, not a part of the core Silmarillion. We get a lot less detail in Silm about Turin’s time in Doriath, which is when we see a lot more of Thingol in CoH and where we see his attitude on mortals make a complete 180 (he is in fact the only Elf lord to ever foster a Man). But even within Silm, it’s rarely acknowledged that in the end, he does support Beren and Luthien’s marriage.

He seats Beren at his left hand–it’s hard to overstate the significance of that.

I think it is relevant to remember that in accepting Luthien’s marriage to Beren, Thingol is necessarily accepting her death–the death of his only child, whom he holds dearer than all the land and wealth of Doriath. That doesn’t make his actions in B&L right, but I think it makes them understandable.

Later, when the forces of Doriath go to hunt Carcaroth, Beren and Thingol hunt together.

But also, simply because he repeatedly comes into conflict with the sons of Feanor, he was doomed to be recast as a villain by the fandom because the sons are so popular that anyone who dislikes them is going to get shafted by the fandom. Hating on Thingol is so accepted in this fandom people don’t even seem to regard it as character bashing to come onto posts or fics about Thingol and share how much they don’t like him/think he’s an asshole/whatever.

I really don’t think there is an overreaction to hearing about unprovoked mass murder. I really think most of us would react very badly to finding out that someone we’d had dealings with had slaughtered a bunch of people, whether or not we were related to the victims. It’s been said before but I’ll drag it out again: Thingol had to do something. As king, he did not have the option of not reacting to that–that it happened, or that the Noldor tried to conceal it. The Quenya ban was arguably a mid-level response (Furthermore, it was a pretty deft display of Thingol’s soft power–Maedhros scoffs at his claim to be king of Beleriand, yet look how instantly and totally the Sindar adhere to this directive. With this one move, Thingol displays for the Noldor how far his power reaches. If they were thinking about armed conflict with Thingol and Doriath, they now know how many of the Elves of Beleriand they would have to deal with.) It’s not like Fingolfin was going to turn his people over for a trial, and accept whatever punishment Doriath’s court ruled on, not least because Fingon himself was a significant part of the Kinslaying at Alqualonde. The Noldor, hand their crown prince over to a foreign justice system? Not gonna happen.

I will link to my tag for Thingol metas, if you want to see more of what other people have stated more eloquently about his character and his actions!

Long story short: I like Thingol, flaws included, and it’s kind of laughable that of all the characters in the book, THIS is the one people find irredeemable.

God, the disaster that is Nirnaeth Arnoediad must've brought Maedhros and his brother's reputation down the drain, Maedhros especially. The alliance was named after him and that must've brought so much shit to his name. Like, I wonder how he lived after that battle? Was he able to sleep every night knowing he failed spectacularly? Did he always dream of what could have been? Because every time I think of that fifth battle, I think to myself, how did Maedhros bear that failure with grace, when I myself felt that shame when they fell back. What do you think?

The Nirnaeth feels like a turning point, for the Noldor in Middle-earth. A number of things went wrong, among them that Tolkien tells us Maedhros revealed his strength too soon to Melkor. There were so many moments it seemed like they could pull this off, or at least cause some real damage to Melkor, but there were just so many things that worked against them, not least of all the betrayals Melkor sowed among the Noldor’s allies and the fact that the Feanorians had alienated major Elvish allies in Middle-earth (Doriath, Nargothrond) which could have made a real difference in the fight.

Part of being a leader is living with the choices you make. Honestly, a critical part of being a leader is being able to accept your mistakes and bad judgement calls without letting it ruin your ability to make decisions going forward. The problem is, it feels like Maedhros was already growing desperate. It seems he had already begun to lose faith that Melkor could be defeated, for the Nirnaeth chapter opens on how Maedhros’ heart was uplifted to hear of Beren and Luthien’s success in assaulting Angband, seeing that Melkor was not, in fact, unassailable (ergo, prior to B&L, Maedhros had believed or begun to believe Melkor was untouchable). Fingolfin, beloved high king of the Noldor who led them through hundreds of years of the long peace after fencing Melkor into Angband, met his glorious and messy end less than twenty years earlier. Fingon is a fetus of a king by Elf standards. The Feanorians have now turned two of the largest Elven kingdoms in Middle-earth against them, one of which was founded and ruled by their own damn cousin. The Feanorians are still bound to their oath. All of this leads to Maedhros showing his hand to Melkor too soon, and the whole thing has an air of desperation around it. Not very auspicious for them.

Personally, I view the Nirnaeth as THE major turning point for Maedhros as an individual. I talked here about his strategy and how it changes after the Nirnaeth, but I think his defeat here is what makes him completely and genuinely lose hope that Melkor can ever be defeated at all. I think Maedhros needed the Nirnaeth to prove something to himself, and it does the opposite of that. They lose a lot and get virtually nothing in return. The name itself tells you what a devastating defeat it was (“Unnumbered Tears”).

And I do not think he bore it with grace.

It’s after the Nirnaeth we see Maedhros become increasingly willing to enact violence against other Elves, and to do virtually anything to get his hands on Luthien’s Silmaril, because I think he does not consider the other two obtainable. Maedhros, in my mind, is simply trying to get his hands on one piece of their goal before Melkor conquers Middle-earth (which, to Maedhros, I think is inevitable). Maedhros has neither amdir nor estel, and he sinks lower and lower into a moral nadir flailing around in the general direction of his goals, because if you have no hope of a future, who cares about fucking the present?

However, regarding the Nirnaeth and its impact on Maedhros’ reputation: Don’t worry! I’m sure by the end of the First Age, the Nirnaeth isn’t the first thing that comes to mind regarding Maedhros’ impact on Beleriand 🙃

But that's just me, what about you?

Oh, I definitely think Finarfin is incredibly courageous.

Finwe’s kids are all brave, but in different ways. Feanor and Fingolfin have what’s called in the book “high courage,” the kind of attitude that allows Fingolfin to say “yes, we can cross the Helcaraxe” and Feanor to say “yes I will charge this balrog in battle.” But Finarfin has a different kind–the kind required to say “I fucked up and I accept the consequences.”

Finarfin and the small number of followers who go with him are the only ones to truly own up to the First Kinslaying. He is the only one willing to return to the Valar and say “we did this horrible thing, we accept our punishment for it.” And as anyone who’s ever messed up and had to admit that to an authority figure knows, that’s really difficult. It’s difficult as a kid when you broke something mom told you not to play with, or as an adult when you caused a real problem at work–now imagine Finarfin whose people have committed unprovoked murder going to lay down his confession at the feet of effective gods.

Yes, the Valar forgive them and even allow Finarfin to take up his father’s crown, but that was by no means the logical outcome when he decided to go back. Finarfin had plenty of reason to think he would not be forgiven–but he went anyway, because he was convinced it was the right thing to do, and he was prepared to take whatever punishment the Valar set.

I love Fingolfin, but part of the reason he refused to go back was out of shame. He did not want to bear the shame of returning to Tirion as a murderer, as someone whose children were murderers, as someone who had gotten caught up in Feanor’s schemes and done terrible things to the Noldor’s friends and allies.

Furthermore, they feared to be punished for what they had done:

Yet Finarfin was willing to bear these things, where his brothers were not.

And to your point–there’s value in knowing when to quit. I understand why we put a lot of weight and value on “never giving up,” but sometimes you’re just wasting more time and energy where it’s not going to do you any good. Sometimes it’s better to tactically retreat and try something new. There is wisdom in recognizing when it’s time for a different strategy or a new goal. This is something the Feanorians could have given a try, but instead they decided to be kings of the sunk-cost fallacy.

I’m glad you were able to back out of something that wasn’t working for you, and save yourself some trouble!

Hello! As a self-described Sindar stan, I was wondering if you have any thoughts on Thingol’s decision to demand a Silmaril from Beren? I agree that Thingol is often more maligned by the fandom than he deserves, but this is the one action of his I simply can’t get over. Not only is he basically sentencing Beren to death, and treating his own daughter like an object to be bartered for, but also… diplomatically, it’s an OUTRAGEOUSLY stupid move imo. Yes, Thingol has absolutely no reason to play nice with the Fëanorians considering the Kinslaying at Alqualondë; but even so, what a breathtakingly insulting slap in the face, to demand one of the jewels their father made and their grandfather was murdered for as some kind of fucked-up bride-price!

Although his later refusal to give the Fëanorians the Silmaril is understandable at least, given how C&C treated Lúthien, I still think this initial move of Thingol’s was SO stupid and unnecessarily aggressive. Genuinely intrigued whether you have any defence you can make for it, because it baffles me. (And I hope this ask doesn’t come across as mean or aggressive, it wasn’t meant that way at all! ❤️)

However, unfortunately, bride-prices were very much a thing in ages gone by, and Thingol is not the only father in Tolkien’s work to demand one–most notably, Elrond puts the price of Arwen’s hand on Aragorn reclaiming the crown of Gondor, something that must have felt like an impossible task when it was given. So I would, with effort, set aside our modern discomfort with the very notion of bride-prices and dowries, which were at one time normal and expected, to focus on the content of that demand.

Truthfully, I don’t think Thingol ever expected to get the Silmaril. He gave Beren a task which he believed was impossible, so that Beren would either give up, or die trying. In that sense, I don’t think it was ever really about the symbol, but to give Beren was was so obviously a task he could never succeed at, so that Beren would understand that Thingol would never approve of his desire for Luthien, nor consent to their marriage. It wasn’t Thingol’s way of trying to get his hands on a Silmaril–it was his way of telling Beren to fuck off.

I don’t think he cared at that point if Beren died in the effort. The language both in Silm proper and in Lay of Leithian suggests Thingol and many others in Doriath thought Luthien was under some temporary madness, and Thingol believed Beren was taking advantage of her. He was totally wrong about that, but briefly you can imagine how you would feel if some rando mortal wandering around the woods was trying to take advantage of your daughter. If he had listened to Luthien, he might have seen the truth, but unfortunately he chose to act on his first take on the situation and brush off Luthien’s defense.

There’s also the fact that he loves his daughter, and by accepting her marriage to a mortal, he is necessarily accepting the very significant chance that his immortal child will die because of this. Elves can and do die of grief, and even if Luthien had not become mortal, Beren’s eventual inevitable death might have been her end as well. It was undoubtedly selfish of him to put his own interest in keeping Luthien around over Luthien’s expressed desires, but you can perhaps see how as a parent, he panicked and tried to put a nix on the whole thing. He believed he was doing the right thing by separating her from Beren, but he would’ve realized that was a mistake if he had genuinely listened to what she had to say (also, he might have seen that her and Beren’s relationship is very similar to his and Melian’s).

But Thingol’s downfall repeatedly is that he lets his pride and his temper get the better of him and he refuses to listen to those around him (Luthien, Melian, etc.) When he later calms down and realizes he’s made a mistake, he usually does a mea culpa and changes his opinion, but at that point, there’s usually been some damage.

We see this with Beren and Luthien–when they return, Thingol changes his view on Beren and on their relationship, and even seats Beren at the left hand of the king. Furthermore, when they go out hunting Carcaroth, Thingol’s primary concern is for Beren’s safety, knowing now what he means to Luthien. Additionally, his view on Men in general warms quite a bit, to the point where he takes Turin in as his foster-son–the only time an Elf lord ever fosters a mortal. However, that doesn’t change that Beren and Luthien put themselves in enormous danger trying to accomplish the task Thingol had set for them, and if Luthien had died trying to get that Silmaril, I don’t see how Thingol could have ever forgiven himself for it (and if Beren had died and not been saved, I’m not sure Luthien would have forgiven him either).

So yeah, I don’t think the Feanorians played into Thingol’s request even the slightest bit; this was about him and Beren and Luthien. But yes, once he had it, the Feanorians really gave him no reason to want to hand it over, given what they did to his daughter (and the fact that Maedhros, leader of the Feanorians, never punishes or reprimands Celegorm and Curufin for their actions, which amounts to tacit approval).

In short: Yeah it was a bad move, but more because it shows how little he was listening to Luthien and how little he understood her relationship with Beren, rather than simply because it was a bride-price or because it was a Silmaril.